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Offline [KC}magates

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 11:54:58 AM »
I just saw the worst case scenario of imba luck.  They have war start and marak has just exactly enough time to get a warrior built. so lporiginal takes 11% odds and wins.  the only thing marak could have done is to build it sooner so it could fortify for a turn or so.

Offline OT4E

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 03:19:25 PM »
You cant win all games but only the  most. The more you win the better you are. Taking 10% with warstart is a waste I can say. And luck allways reward players who knows how to tame it.
Oh, damn! I have just lost 51%. How could that happen? Where is firaxis complaint section?

Offline Spyro

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 04:03:30 PM »
That is not true magates. You can move your scout back as to defend as well. But it only helps you if you are able to build a second warrior in time.
There is only ONE truth out there. That truth will be revealed in any case. The only question is the time.

Offline [KC}magates

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 02:26:58 AM »
that's true spyro.  I guess we didn't realize war start till late to move it back.   

Offline SirPartyMan

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 04:08:53 AM »
Do you call it unsportsmanlike, when in poker, someone hits an inside straight on the river?

Do you call it unsportsmanlike, when in golf, the ball hits the pin hard and falls into the cup for a birdie?

Do you call it unsportsmanlike, when in roulette, someone plunks $100 down on 00 and wins a bundle?

No! Each of these games to one extent or another has an element of luck involved, admittedly some more than others.

To me, CIV is more like poker, than golf or roulette.  It's a mathematical game where you take calculated risks.  Sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't.  Over the long haul, the luck should even out but in the short term you can win a battle with only 2% odds in your favor, and even lose a battle with 98% odds in your favor. 

Taking an 11.1% shot at someone may or may not be a good decision - but to me the person who complains and whines about losing when the odds favor them 88.9% is exhibiting much worse sportsmanship than the person who took the chance and won. It's a calculated risk - and you have to weigh the benefits of an occasional win vs. the cost of losing most of the time.

Consider these two situations,  Player A has a warrior vs. warrior shot at an enemy single city at 11.1%. Let's imagine this is a distant enemy who is otherwise more skilled and more powerful.  The loss of one warrior 8 out of 9 times might well be worth it as the benefit of removing the player from the game 1 out of 9 times is much more significant a victory factor.

In the second situation.  Player B has an axe as the only unit in their only city.  The opponent has a lowly warrior next to city.  If Player B attacks they will win like 95% of the time - 19 out of 20 they beat the warrior.  But all they gain is one dead warrior who isn't much of a threat anyway.  On the other hand 1 out of 20 times, they will be dead when their city is empty and the 0.1 warrior kills them.  The risk benefit analysis here should tell you not to take the 95% odds - the risk is too great.

Just my two cents.  But in my opinion, in either situation the sportsmanship comes in after the battle and whether the winner and loser of the battle are gracious or if they whine about their "bad luck".

SPM

 

« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 04:16:01 AM by SirPartyMan »

Offline Chuckle

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 05:44:11 AM »
I'd much rather he took the 11% too.  the other 8 games he loses these odds you play a much more enjoyable game, plus you gain an advantage as your opponent can't scout you, your warrior gets an upgrade, and its a little psychologically annoying to your opponent (arg why did i waste that warrior??).   1/9 games you are put out of your misery. instead of being choked and most likely losing- head to the lobby for a new more fun game

The only time to take it with a warrior start is if the teams are so imbalanced, that the warrior start team is still highly favored to lose.

Play a 2 hour painful game you will most likely lose anyway <  2 hours  of life minus 1 report

Man yeah those are so frustrating at poker, I was a pro for 2 years and did really well, but I almost threw my computer screen through the window over some of those.  At least its one report and not thousands of dollars
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 05:46:35 AM by Chuckle »
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Offline [KC}magates

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 11:20:30 PM »
It's exactly like poker of course.  But I still get pissed at people who call with losing hands and hit a 11% or less on the river to win - same exact principle and I think in both cases people taking odds are pricks.

Offline jobe

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 11:30:21 PM »
It's exactly like poker of course.  But I still get pissed at people who call with losing hands and hit a 11% or less on the river to win - same exact principle and I think in both cases people taking odds are pricks.

If the pod odds are right...  8)
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Offline SirPartyMan

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 12:48:50 AM »
It's exactly like poker of course.  But I still get pissed at people who call with losing hands and hit a 11% or less on the river to win - same exact principle and I think in both cases people taking odds are pricks.

Why? They are putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak. 

If you understand poker well, you would know that the decision whether to stay in the game on an 11% chance of drawing a straight is influenced by the number of players still in the game, the size of the pot, the amount of the bet to stay in the game, which cards are visible on the table, and how the players have been playing (previous bets and raises, whether the play has been tight or loose, etc.). 

Sometimes staying in the game in this situation is a fool's mission, and other times its the smart thing to do.  While we don't play Civ for money, it is still a similarly complicated risk/benefit analysis.  To say categorically in all situations to never take 11% odds, is very simplistic and uninformed.

SPM
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:55:36 AM by SirPartyMan »

Offline Destroyer

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2010, 03:36:36 AM »
THIS JUST IN Leader of the communist civilization party [PPP]Magates has mandated that players can no longer take odds below 98%, because they are "Unfair"  to those who don't win them every time.


ROFL you want to tell people what they can and cannot do on civ now?  Are you that afraid of losing? Why is this even a legitimate topic ffs?
For all the "average" players who wont stand up to the "elite"- I will.

Offline CptMarrvelous

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2010, 04:06:48 AM »
I give Magates +1 for realizing that he just needed to know what the starting civs are to avoid this without it even coming down to odds.

Quote
I think I remember NOM losing a Dogsoldier attacking a warrior once.

I have three times where I lost odds: 1: I attacked a combat 1, forest spear in the fog with my chariot, I won.

2: I moved a very wounded Horse Archer into the fog, unknowingly on top of a double combat Elephant. I won.

3: Double forest jag moves onto a fog tile with a combat 1 scout. Jag fully healed, dies.

Both odds were 99% and I think one was 100%.

Something about that fog tho...
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Offline Atomation

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2010, 04:26:53 AM »
It´s a matter of skill 95% of the time whether you´re opponent is even able to get into a position where he has 10%.

Just as a general thought, wouldn´t it be interesting if anything above/below a certain odd was sure win/loss? Like 90% and higher = win, 10% or less = loss. The fight still works like now, just instead of losing a 90%, your unit stops losing hp at 0.1 and instead just wins the rest of the battle. Same other way round, instead of killing a unit with 10% or less, you get it down to 0.1hp and then your unit dies.



I've suggested a similar system, with more or less intricacies for balance, for years.  And redphoenix was always there to naysay it.  He doesn't understand that fun variance comes from the players more than the cards, don't pay attention to him:D .
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Offline Atomation

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2010, 04:29:06 AM »
I think I remember NOM losing a Dogsoldier attacking a warrior once.

Attacking a city to kill someone who only had a warrior defending it... :d It's pretty stupid, but then so is upgrading warriors to dog soldiers in ancient ss when players are 3 tiles away from each other... :P
"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion." -Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

"I like free workers."
-corporate ceo

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent” ~ ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -John Kenneth Galbraith

Offline Atomation

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2010, 04:31:58 AM »
My scout killed a warrior on flat ground the other day.  99.1% the other guy lost.  That would irritate me.
Had that in the latest CTON I played. Scout was protecting the worker on flat :p
Guy had 1 warrior in cap, wasnt going to get one, and I obviously had autpromo on...
I was supposedely out of the game (no kill but superchoke) and I ended up losing my forest hill position :p

But that's part of the game. I'll crush the guy the other 99% of the time.

Yes you may crush someone the other 99% of the time, but since civ is such a time drain per game that 1% means too much both in terms of statistics, bragging rights, impact and general time wasting.  It's not like in poker where if you get a bad hand you send it back and get another, with only moments lost, and that hand means relatively nothing in the scheme of the match.  Early battles have a gigantic impact on the game, and hence make civ even more luck dependent than even a game synonymous with luck - poker.

To point out yet another discrepancy with the poker comparison.....in poker when a player is dealt a bad hand, they have the option to opt out without losing the match.  In civ, you can't.  You can't say ....hey I'd rather just lose 1 population of my city for losing a 9% rather than losing the whole game.  There is no folding, there is only an outright result, where the offensive player has the prerogative at all times.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 05:17:25 AM by Missladyluck »
"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion." -Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

"I like free workers."
-corporate ceo

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent” ~ ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -John Kenneth Galbraith

Offline Tony[UYP]

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Re: sportmanship and random imba luck
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2010, 11:26:05 AM »
I had a idea for battle calculator once (although I don't think this can be changed with a MOD, so it's pie in the sky).  How about the results of a battle are "pre-known".  So for example, when an aggressive warrior attacks a normal warrior with 60% odds, he will lose 40% of this life and win 100% of the time.

So 2 regular warrior will always beat 1 aggressive warrior on flat, 2 archers will kill a chariot every time, etc.

This would make not having a resource slightly more playable and allow people to plan ahead.  Why have a RNG at all?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 11:29:52 AM by Tony[UYP] »

 

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