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Offline AP3

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Trouble
« on: January 31, 2010, 03:01:04 AM »
I am not sure what the propper method of investigating players breaking rules, but I would like to know.  If you are an admin in a game can you suspend players in that game yourself, or do you need to go thru the propper procedures and report the abuse like the rest of us.

The player that is accused of abuse, then gets a chance to refute the accusation right?  Can the admin just suspend anyone they like if he is in the game, and is angry, and is loosing.

Not being able to confront my accuser, say my peace, just be suspended really pisses me off.  I like playing civ.  I dont want to have to wait for this to clear itself up before I can play another league game.  I am very confident that this suspension will be removed when the facts come out.  At that time, I would like a public apology from SPM for suspending before actually talking to me.

Action 2.  I would like to see a rule that states an Admin may not suspend a player he is actively in the game with.

Action 3.  A player can not be suspended before a message is sent to him, and he gets 48 hours to respond.

Hell ya I am pissed.  I am not some snot nosed kid cursing at others.  I dont abuse the system.  I treat others, noob or otherwise with respect, MLL, and Nom excluded

Have I said I am pissed yet...... Damm strait I am.

Bottom Line is I had to leave the game to take my wife to dinner.  Everyone on TS knew I had to go.  I was the host, and told the peeps in the game that I had to leave for dinner in a few hours.  WL and Buddy2x who was on your team knew I had to go.  I also stand on the fact I have been an active member in this league for years and have never been suspended!!

I say agin, I am pissed.  Fix the system, cuz if I can be abused like this who knows what your doing to the poor kids in this league.

Offline Zhenon

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 03:38:14 AM »
Ape you know this is not the place for this.  That said, if someone falsely accuses another player (or is otherwise manipulative of the rules); not only can you be let out of the box immediately, your accuser can be boxed for misrepresenting the facts.

Secondly, if you know you have to leave, why not start looking for a sub 5-10 mins beforehand?

Finally, this is one of the many reasons why I dislike playing open league teamers and would rather play with old-school people, friends, & clanmates.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 04:05:50 AM by Zhenon »
[PPP]jobe_c4f: you want my mod zhenon? that's rather pathetic, what you're doing O_o
[PPP]jobe_c4f: i feel just sad for humaniy seing it

"ok see you in civ5 bitches, you'll know me because I'm the guy who doesn't need to change his name."
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Offline Zhenon

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 04:00:45 AM »
Regarding "Action 2:"

How ineffective would we be if there was a 10-day bureaucratic process to something we eye witness?  Actually, I wish admins played more games so that we would punish players in person rather than the tattle-tale crap goes on now in our mailroom.

PS -- I'll leave this unlocked because it has the potential to be a good discussion.  If this thread degenerates, I will lock it immediately.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 04:09:05 AM by Zhenon »
[PPP]jobe_c4f: you want my mod zhenon? that's rather pathetic, what you're doing O_o
[PPP]jobe_c4f: i feel just sad for humaniy seing it

"ok see you in civ5 bitches, you'll know me because I'm the guy who doesn't need to change his name."
-- 1p0r1g1n41g

Offline SirPartyMan

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 05:07:46 AM »
I announced in a prior thread, entitled STRICT ENFORCEMENT OF NO QUITTING RULE, that I would suspend anyone I witnessed first hand quitting a game.  You might have noticed that thread, since it was pinned to the top of the general section with a link from the lead article on our home page for weeks.  It has over 2570 views so it wasn't hidden. I spoke with the other admins about this before that posting, including CS, and they felt it was fair and appropriate under our rules as well. 

The evidence was introvertible -- you quit a teamer tonight - you said you were quitting in public to everyone - you didn't arrange for a replacement and left the game in the lurch.  We wasted another 30 minutes looking for a replacement and then scrapped.  The game was on turn 81. Nine other people had almost 2 hours invested in that game each.  This is abusive, and your excuse is pretty lame.  You are the person who should apologize to each and every one of the other nine players whose time you wasted.

Did you know when the game started you needed to take your wife to dinner in 90 minutes?  If you did you shouldn't have started the game. If you start a game and then discover you need to take your wife to dinner, then tell everyone in the game, and find a substitute, before you leave.  You did neither.

We are suspending anyone who quits a game - this ladder was formed to stop quitting. We just suspended the #1 Ranked player for 30 days and dropped him 250 skill points over repeated quitting of games. We hope the message is reaching people that it is no longer tolerated.
 
You have the right to appeal to the Head Admin.

SPM

« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 05:32:59 AM by SirPartyMan »

Offline Grimarch

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 08:26:17 AM »
Ap3 reading SPM's mail i have some sympathy for yo but back SPM, if it was turn 81 then you will get boxed. Getting a sub yourself would not have been har if you had that long to play. You decided i guess to see if you could win before you had to go and failed and therefore left anyway.

Thems the breaks.

I fully support an admin doing an immediate boxing, hopefully with more admins playing the games get bettera and people realise that they can have a good game with an adminon board (even if im terrible and the less said about CS the better ;p)

Sorry but your in the wrong here and the immediate boxing seems fair.

Grim

Offline AP3

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 02:21:55 PM »
SPM,
  Knowing the whole story now, whould you have boxed me still?  And if you still would have boxed me, where is the consistancy?  You let others leave when loosing constantly, yet box me when most knew I had to leave anyway at a given time.  Had to leave while winning the game, taking cities from your team.
  This is the problem with not having set rules for rule enforcement.  You let your admins become the judge jury and executioner in games they participate in.  Look at my prior posts on this matter.  I am all for strict enforcement of rules abuse, but clearly here in this instance I have not abused any rules.  SPM was biased having just had to spend 30 minutes to find a sub, and have to scrap a game he was 1.5 hrs into.  While I sympathize with you, you are not the right guy to judge this matter.  Nor should you enforce a severe penalty before speaking to me.  I have been here long enuf positivly participating in the league, I deserve the chance to speak my peace prior to your suspending me. 

« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 02:50:41 PM by AP3 »

Offline AP3

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 02:54:51 PM »
Grim,
  If you leave a game for any reason and dont have a sub you should be boxed on the spot?  If that is what you mean, I beg to differ.  I made it plain that I had limited time prior to starting.  The game was very slow and went long.  Usually 90 min is long enuf for a ss match.  That is in addition to the wait in the lobby for 10 to join and all to x in.  I had to boot a player in staging for not x'n in.  I was the host, I did not want to shut the game down and make all start over again with new host becuase I was short on time.  You know we regularly sub players out.  With a shrinking civ community we are forced to start frequently with players that are short on time as there might not be any others available.

I admire your support of another admin, but blindly backing him without having all the facts is what caused this problem in the first place.  As admins you may put up the wall and back your fellow admin, but ultimatly you erode your authority and respect of the league by doing so.

Ap3 reading SPM's mail i have some sympathy for yo but back SPM, if it was turn 81 then you will get boxed. Getting a sub yourself would not have been har if you had that long to play. You decided i guess to see if you could win before you had to go and failed and therefore left anyway.

Thems the breaks.

I fully support an admin doing an immediate boxing, hopefully with more admins playing the games get bettera and people realise that they can have a good game with an adminon board (even if im terrible and the less said about CS the better ;p)

Sorry but your in the wrong here and the immediate boxing seems fair.

Grim
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 02:56:52 PM by AP3 »

Offline Zhenon

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 03:01:40 PM »
Okay Ape.  Now you're just hurting your own case.  Had you simply emailed the administration asking for leniency because you stated before you launched the game you hosted that you had to leave, I am 99% certain you would have been let off the hook immediately.

Bringing this stuff to the forums only hurts your case.
[PPP]jobe_c4f: you want my mod zhenon? that's rather pathetic, what you're doing O_o
[PPP]jobe_c4f: i feel just sad for humaniy seing it

"ok see you in civ5 bitches, you'll know me because I'm the guy who doesn't need to change his name."
-- 1p0r1g1n41g

Offline AP3

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 03:19:02 PM »
THAT is my point.  This was not a boxable offense.  You cant just do this crap without finding out whats up.  I am totally willing to do the time.  I am really pissed that I was not given the chance to state my peace prior to boxing.  I know that if I had come in this morning and just said I am sorry, I am sure I could have been unboxed rather quickly.  I guess I am not being clear enuf.

The accused should be able to state their side prior to punishment.  The only reason why this was not investigated prior to boxing is because the admin was in the game.

I just found out speaker tried to come to ts to find out what was up, and the two guys in ts did not tell them what was up. 

I give up.  I got screwed by the circumstances and the system.  I will stfu and do my time now, but I am not happy bout it.


Okay Ape.  Now you're just hurting your own case.  Had you simply emailed the administration asking for leniency because you stated before you launched the game you hosted that you had to leave, I am 99% certain you would have been let off the hook immediately.

Bringing this stuff to the forums only hurts your case.

Offline Lestat

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 03:47:07 PM »
lol he take hes wife to dinner and left others players
to lose 30 minutes for bs and now hes crying

lol find a live maried man...
wot is box for you ... you have real life ...wife ... diner...

well we who dont have real life can bithing when we are boxed

BS





Pic of WOUMANS

Bantams-tk-tk2: dude stop spamming it is lame

Offline Destroyer

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 04:23:42 PM »
Just a side note, this isn't a courtroom, you can't file an appeal every time you get boxed for doing something wrong.  If players have the ability to undermine admin whenever they please then what is the point of having them in the first place?  I couldn't care less about what happens in this situation, I'm just pointing that it isn't fair to go changing rules every time someone feels wronged.  I mean come on, if that were the case we wouldn't have a league to play in.
For all the "average" players who wont stand up to the "elite"- I will.

Offline Grimarch

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 05:32:04 PM »
APe im not backing SPM regardless i have done the same and boxed people if they quit a game i am in for no reason. Remember circumstance is often irrelavent as we can never really prove that someone has gone into labour or their kids are crting etc. Playing when these are possibilities means you accept the fate should you choose to ignore the rules.

Remember telling people up front or saying guys look i need to go out as the wife is badgering me ive got 10 mins do you want me to loook for a sub or play and let you, would have been the course of action to take, even the hardest of admins would say well at least he tried and maybe not given any box time or at least made it a few days during the week.

Ap3 your a good guy, but cocked up for once, oy your fault either but you have to admit you didnt go about the leaving of the game correctly or with any provisoin to do it with the respect of the other players deserved.

G

[CC]Bantams

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 06:37:20 PM »
I quited 3 games in 3 days please box me ty

hell free ape ill do his time too :P
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 06:40:35 PM by Bantams »

Offline weaksauce

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 06:49:36 PM »
this is partly why i quit playing.  it's not the entire reason, but dealing w/ the admins here is really a chore. 

i would say that barely 50% of the decisions i see are right, and that's being generous.  i realize it's a volunteer group, and you have to couch your level of expectations in that light.  but i think it's repeatedly fucked up, lacking common sense, and really an impediment to being a part of this league.

this kind of boxing of ap3; i can think of 10 other events off the top of my head, where a total lack of common sense is exhibited.  it's just retarded.

IDK why you guys insist on "doing things behind closed doors", other than to hide your fucked up process from the light of day.  instead of posting disputes/appeals publicly for all names and facts to be exposed appropriately.


Offline Speaker

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 06:57:08 PM »
this is partly why i quit playing.  it's not the entire reason, but dealing w/ the admins here is really a chore. 

i would say that barely 50% of the decisions i see are right, and that's being generous.  i realize it's a volunteer group, and you have to couch your level of expectations in that light.  but i think it's repeatedly friged up, lacking common sense, and really an impediment to being a part of this league.

this kind of boxing of ap3; i can think of 10 other events off the top of my head, where a total lack of common sense is exhibited.  it's just retarded.

IDK why you guys insist on "doing things behind closed doors", other than to hide your friged up process from the light of day.  instead of posting disputes/appeals publicly for all names and facts to be exposed appropriately.


Says the guy who begged us not to tell anyone when he reported them.  Well, thanks for your input, I guess.
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