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Offline Zhenon

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2010, 04:31:42 PM »

There's at least 3 threads addressing this issue.  Please educate yourself.  I'm working under the assumption that CS intends more than just modifier changes.

Also, I too support a separation of OCC and cton as they are completely different game types.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 04:37:09 PM by Zhenon »
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Offline CanuckSoldier

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 09:43:50 PM »
As I,ve said before I would be glad to separate ctons and OCC's, It is not my lack of approval that is holding this up it is my lack of programmers that is the issue. 

As soon as Speaker and/or SPM have gotten the access to the code and after studing the code that Slaughter wrote, they are free to engineer this change.

And yes Milo, changing the weighting is not going to solve the issues with high skill players mixing with low skill players in a cton.  It will only make both winning and losing more "rewarding" or dangerous.

And to be honest I don't think that there is a Code solution to mixed skill ctons. This is a social dynamic problem,  not a failure of the Glicko system.  But I am still open to possible solutions if they exist.

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Offline Zhenon

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2010, 10:09:08 PM »
I see that the majority is liking 0.9, but that's just too high.
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Offline CptMarrvelous

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2010, 10:21:51 PM »
Not if your 770 Skill ;D
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Offline CanuckSoldier

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2010, 01:37:35 AM »
I see that the majority is liking 0.9, but that's just too high.

Well don't worry, like I said in my post, this is not a binding survey, I'll likely try something conservative like 0.7 and then observe the results and see then if we need to move it up or down.  I really just wanted to see if there was support at all for a change.

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Offline Zhenon

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2010, 01:44:00 AM »
i voted 0.6 because it's 50% higher than the current value.  However, I think some of they people in this thread are correct:  increasing that value will only exacerbate the original problem -- which is that higher ranked folks will be penalized heavier by coming in 2nd in noob ctons.  Thus they will be even less likely to play them.
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Offline CanuckSoldier

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2010, 01:55:24 AM »
Well there are two problems here, people don't think they get enough for wins, this problem will be solved by this solution.  The second problem of cton ranking will be made worse by this, there is no solution that addresses both positively, they are at odds with each other. 

This solution will make winning much more rewarded, but you are going to gamble that some average player isn't going to get the best start ever and beat you, but I have no way of adjusting the randomness of Civ within the Glicko system, we can't program in a luck factor :-/ 

But still in the long run of stastical averages, elite cton players will benifit more from this than they lose, but game to game any randomness can happen, that's just luck for you.

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Offline Mu_

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2010, 03:04:55 AM »
In theory, after many ctons, if you are an elite player, you should win more than you lose, so the overall skill gain from ctons will be higher than what you would gain today (if the modifier increases). The rest is just a question of risk avoidance:

Is the likelihood that you gonna die first and lose 50 points instead of 25 deterring you from trying to gain +12 instead of +6? I don't know, but whoever likes cton now will welcome this change, and whoever doesn't... well they won't start playing them either. I believe we will, however, determine some undecided to play more ctons.

Offline CptMarrvelous

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2010, 05:26:23 AM »
Top players will be more motivated to play ctons as it means a faster chance of moving up the league. If you are worried about land, choosing a suitable map shouldn't be hard with all the green maps we have now, in addition, not even including the yet to be released maps. Everything is balanced out, res for everyone, food for everyone, no one is at a clear disadvantage, it will and should come down to skill, not luck. For this reason, I am all for 0.9.
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Offline miL0

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2010, 10:58:10 AM »
Well there are two problems here, people don't think they get enough for wins, this problem will be solved by this solution.  The second problem of cton ranking will be made worse by this, there is no solution that addresses both positively, they are at odds with each other. 

This solution will make winning much more rewarded, but you are going to gamble that some average player isn't going to get the best start ever and beat you, but I have no way of adjusting the randomness of Civ within the Glicko system, we can't program in a luck factor :-/ 

But still in the long run of stastical averages, elite cton players will benifit more from this than they lose, but game to game any randomness can happen, that's just luck for you.

CS

Sorry CS, but what you're saying here is simply wrong. An elite Cton player and high ranked ladder member is not going to get more points out of playing Ctons than he will lose. I've shown several examples where I could win 10 Ctons in a row and gain 10-15 points and then get third in two games and lose 20, with the exact same players in it. Just look at the last CCC Cton games: We have very good and skilled Cton players in there, but Glicko and Cton just doesn't fit together because values you can win/lose are just way too high, depending on your position in the ladder. So the key would be to cap the highest win/loss to a value (e.g. 10 - comes close to the teamer average gain/loss). No player would lose more than 10 skill points per game and wouldn't win more than 10 skill points per game.

If the ratio gets up to 0.9, who of the skilled players that have a high rank would play an average Cton anymore? Why risk a loss of 50 or even more when all I can get is 2-4 skill points?

The other problem are the OCC games. If you take a look at the results from top OCC league members like andreas, castbender, etc. No matter who they play with, they have zero risk of being killed and thus losing the game. They will always get a top placement because land is equal and they just know better how to play OCC than others. Increasing the value for them will mean higher gains per OCC game which will result in a better standing in the league overall.

As I see it right now, the values you can gain/lose for an average league member are very nice. You can get quite some points from Ctons unless you're very high up in the ranking. The ratio here isn't really broken and doesn't need to be fixed. I have not seen many people complain about that, it's mostly the stupidity that comes along with glicko that makes the elites go crazy...
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Offline RedPhoenix

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2010, 11:22:31 AM »
Well there are two problems here, people don't think they get enough for wins, this problem will be solved by this solution.  The second problem of cton ranking will be made worse by this, there is no solution that addresses both positively, they are at odds with each other. 

This solution will make winning much more rewarded, but you are going to gamble that some average player isn't going to get the best start ever and beat you, but I have no way of adjusting the randomness of Civ within the Glicko system, we can't program in a luck factor :-/ 

But still in the long run of stastical averages, elite cton players will benifit more from this than they lose, but game to game any randomness can happen, that's just luck for you.

CS

Sorry CS, but what you're saying here is simply wrong. An elite Cton player and high ranked ladder member is not going to get more points out of playing Ctons than he will lose. I've shown several examples where I could win 10 Ctons in a row and gain 10-15 points and then get third in two games and lose 20, with the exact same players in it. Just look at the last CCC Cton games: We have very good and skilled Cton players in there, but Glicko and Cton just doesn't fit together because values you can win/lose are just way too high, depending on your position in the ladder. So the key would be to cap the highest win/loss to a value (e.g. 10 - comes close to the teamer average gain/loss). No player would lose more than 10 skill points per game and wouldn't win more than 10 skill points per game.

If the ratio gets up to 0.9, who of the skilled players that have a high rank would play an average Cton anymore? Why risk a loss of 50 or even more when all I can get is 2-4 skill points?

The other problem are the OCC games. If you take a look at the results from top OCC league members like andreas, castbender, etc. No matter who they play with, they have zero risk of being killed and thus losing the game. They will always get a top placement because land is equal and they just know better how to play OCC than others. Increasing the value for them will mean higher gains per OCC game which will result in a better standing in the league overall.

As I see it right now, the values you can gain/lose for an average league member are very nice. You can get quite some points from Ctons unless you're very high up in the ranking. The ratio here isn't really broken and doesn't need to be fixed. I have not seen many people complain about that, it's mostly the stupidity that comes along with glicko that makes the elites go crazy...

Milo, why would you cap a cton at an avg teamer value? If you have skilled players in game, winning a cton is harder than winning a teamer, actually takes individual skill.. whereas teamer win also very easily by luck.

That just makes no sense. And your study clearly states the gain is too little, if you gain 15 points for 10 in a row wins, then whats the point playing? Exactly the issue here. People would atleast like to have a chance to gain a points by winning, and possibly a lot if they get a nice win.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 11:23:31 AM by RedPhoenix »

Offline Spyro

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2010, 02:40:58 AM »
I canged my mind, the higher the better!
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Offline Speaker

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2010, 11:54:00 PM »
Quote
CTON: (ID: #5697) Final Standings - 1. DiVerGenius (188) [+26], 2. therecanbeOnlyone (129) [+9], 3. Amschegar (653) [+9], 4. FiL[ESP] (184) [-35], 5. jkukic (29) [-121]
No one should lose 121 skillpoints for any loss, in my opinion.  Yowch!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 11:54:45 PM by Speaker »
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Offline CptMarrvelous

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 12:49:52 AM »
ROFL - His risk ;D

Seriously tho, look at all the ranks of the other players, his fault for coming in last in such an obvious noob fest. Still, from the looks of the points first place got, it will only take him 5 wins to make it up. If he is really deserving to be in the top 30, I don't see a problem here.

[EDIT] Even more so if we haven't moved the Weight up yet. Can't wait till its done, I will play more ctons because of it for sure.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 12:51:01 AM by Cpt.Marrvelous »
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Offline CanuckSoldier

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Re: What modifier should ctons be weighted at?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 01:21:04 AM »
Yes that is exessive, but he must have been way higher skilled to start with than every player in that game and then totally sucked in it....can't say the system is broken in this case, and it would be even worse if we were at 0.7 right now, as this game is still weighted at 0.4.

Edit, his RD must have been higher as well from not playing in a few days.

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« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 01:22:12 AM by CanuckSoldier »
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